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Author Topic: I could just puke!  (Read 22856 times)
ErekLich
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2003, 07:13:55 am »

heh... all in all a very nice post to read... thanks for the enlightenment!  Just a few quick comments before I must go...

Ice hockey: nice metaphor.  I actually get where you two (meaning LK too) are coming from now.

Vietnam: I didn't mean we officially declared war... ever since Korea, US Presidents have blithely (another fun word for you to look up perhaps!  Cheesy) ignored the constitutional way to declare war... I mean that we are, in effect, now at war...
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« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2003, 07:25:58 am »

It really did have to use it again! It means "to happily do s.th."

(Shouldn't type at 3:30 in the morning... even one sentence is full of typos!)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2003, 07:27:07 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2003, 07:36:18 am »

Quote


The former... perhaps aided by the allies, much as Japan's constitution was helped along by MacArthur...


No. Definitely not. Smart men and women sat together and worked that one out for themselves in quite a short time for the common good of the German people in regard to their future relations with other peoples. I'd even go as far as to call it better than the U.S. Constitution since it incorporates more topics and does so in greater detail. (If you can get your hands on an English translation and have some time to read it - you'd be astonished!)

[Have I mentioned before that I really detest, loathe and abhor typographical mistakes and mishaps?]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2003, 07:38:42 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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ErekLich
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2003, 08:00:32 am »

Well, in all fairness you made yours about 200 years later, when more topics were imaginable and relevant...  and in regards to your question, it appears that you have now...
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Another question...
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2003, 05:29:32 pm »

Well, that 200 years difference is true... As for the words to express dismay - I found those three in my Dictionary when looking for the right word  Cheesy
(I can use smart-sounding words, too!)

I have another question about the 1st Amandment to the Constitution: How come that Americans who exercise their right are criticized for doing so. Isn't using your rights in the "land of the free" very patriotic indeed? I don't understand why being against the war somehow automatically implies that you do not support your troops. Isn't bringing the grunts home the best way to support the troops?
Wish someone could explain that to me (remember, I come from the "Old Europe" and don't know much about anything  Wink)
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2003, 08:49:56 pm »

[sigh...]  People are criticized for speaking, because, in many cases, the criticizer is a twit who doesn't realize that free speech means ALL speech...

As for war protesting, well... there is, in my opinion, a fine line... I agree that it is possible to be against a war and still support the troops.  The problem comes when your anti-war protest (whether meant to be anti-troop or not) lowers morale.  Also, during the vietnam war many of the anti-war protests WERE "anti-troops" thanks to the Viet Cong's tactic of using civilian garb, which led to soldiers shooting civilians... I think perhaps the vocal "anti-anti-war protestors" are still thinking of that, and not realizing that it is a different war... (of course some anti-war protestors have the same problem!)
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Death 999
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2003, 09:06:56 pm »

The people who oppose others' free expression aren't true patriots, but self aggrandizing idealogues who drape themselves with the dignity of the American flag to spread their agendas*. True patriots want to tell people what they think, yes... and they want to hear what the others think, so that the government can truly be by the people, not by the loudest shouters.

*Note that I don't insult the agendas, since it's fallacious to think that if an agenda has some bad followers that the agenda itself is necessarily bad.
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ErekLich
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2003, 03:28:40 am »

Iadoga:  you are taking what I said completely out of context.  I was looking at the UN perspective on Iraq when I said that, NOT the American perspective.

The United Nations ordered Iraq to disarm.  Saddam therefore defied the UN by not disarming.

I agree with you, economic sanctions did not work.  It takes something like a war to remove Saddam.  You have defeated your own argument.

As for Oil:  That argument is overdone, and I'm quite frankly getting sick of it.  If anyone has oil interest in this case it is France and Germany who have very large oil contracts with Saddam's regime.

And finally, as to the 12 year old:  Ask the thousands killed by Saddam what they did wrong.  Yeah, war sucks and people die.  But I'd rather have a thousand die today to remove Saddam than a hundred die each and every day living under Saddam.  (and, yes, those numbers are made up, but they prove my point.)

[/rant]

Death: I tend to agree with you, however I think free speech does have some limits -- to use an overused example, I can swing my fist wherever I want, but my right to do that stops at your face.  I'm not sure whether anti-war protests cross the line or not.  I'm also very glad to see at least one other person in the world who doesn't condemn a group based one one of its followers!  Smiley
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2003, 05:12:05 am »

Quote
Death: I tend to agree with you, however I think free speech does have some limits -- to use an overused example, I can swing my fist wherever I want, but my right to do that stops at your face.


Well, I didn't say that free expression included, say, attacking people, making threats, burning crosses on lawns...
The reasons that threats are not permissible as free speech is simply that they are coercive - they reduce someone else's freedom. That I elided that is irrelevant to the argument that the heckler's veto is antidemocratic.
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2003, 05:44:16 am »

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As for Oil:  That argument is overdone, and I'm quite frankly getting sick of it.  If anyone has oil interest in this case it is France and Germany who have very large oil contracts with Saddam's regime.


Excuse me?
Where in the world did you come up with that information? Ever since the U.N. sanctions were in effect the only way to get your hands on Iraqi oil is by trading it in the U.N.'s "oil for food"-program (well, or just go ahead and invade the country).
No matter if you're sick of it or not, oil is a factor in that whole mess. If Iraq didn't have any oil, I don't think that the guys running the U.S. right now would be interested in liberating it. Just look at the résumés of all the head-honchos who are pro-war and you will know what I'm talking about.
You guys are using more oil and fuel than the next nine economically leading countries combined. That's my 2 cents...
We pay about 4 times as much for a gallon of fuel than you guys do and we still don't go to war for it!

As for the civilians killed in the war - I bet they are really happy that they've been liberated from their bodies by coalition bombs and bullets instead of standing the chance of surviving Saddam's regime.

Added:
I just checked the official website of the Federal German Agency for Statistics (yes, no hoax, we have that here!)
(http://www.destatis.de/presse/deutsch/pm2000/p1540181.htm)
(http://www.destatis.de/presse/deutsch/pm2000/p3540181.htm)
and according to those, Germany imports most of its crude oil from Russia and Norway. Iraq is not even part of the statistic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 06:35:48 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2003, 06:30:45 am »

Hey, I never said war was pretty.  But I'd rather have the blood of thousands on my hands in one day than the blood of millions built up slowly over the years.  I'm sure the thousands aren't happy about it, and I never said I was either.  But those millions certainly aren't in any case.
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2003, 06:50:42 am »

You know, I'd rather have nobody's blood on my hands!
(And as a trained German Red Cross Paramedic I had that way too often!)
Death is rarely pretty, but what you are saying is just sarcastic. How much is one life worth? Do the lives of 1000 people carry less weight than the lives of a million? 1000:1 ratio, is that the price you are willing to pay?
I hop I will never have to decide on that - and I bet you don't want to either!

I know that officially the C.I.A. doesn't do that anymore, but why don't you guys just kill Saddam and all of his doubles and friends in his dictatorship instead of killing thousands of innocent people and children? That is what bothers me. Killing a tyrant would even be morally acceptable (although murder never should be).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 06:52:51 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2003, 06:53:41 am »

[shrugs] -- the world sucks sometimes.  Ideally, no one should have to make that choice, I agree.  Unfortunately this isn't an ideal world.

And no, I am not being sarcastic.  If I had to make a choice between thousands and millions of deaths (and thankfully I don't) I think I would choose the thousands.  I would also prefer just killing Saddam, but I don't decide the policy...
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2003, 07:20:43 pm »

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Germany invaded, captured, and proceeded to inflict genocide on Polish Jews.

America plans to invade, take out a dictatorship that pretty much everyone agrees is evil, and proceed to (try to, at least..) set up a new democratic government.

...how exactly can you spin it to make them the same?


Germany attacked in greed for oil and rubber.

USA attacked in greed for oil.
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Tuomas Soronen
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2003, 07:52:53 pm »

You know stounedi, there is nothing that is easier to do than just grab a general attitude and go. We don't live in a black and white world here, and as such, there are many factors that have had different effects on the attack in Iraq. To simply say "It's all about the oil" is a gross oversimplification of a complex set of events. Yes, there is oil involved, yes there is a lot of feeling that the US wouldn't have gone through this much trouble had there not been oil. This doesn't mean that is the true reason however, and even if it is A true reason, it doesn't necessarily mean that it''s the ONLY reason for this war.

Ereklich and GM, what you're actuially discussing re the oil is kind of a no-victory. Before the war, France at least (possibly Germany? This I don't know), had large contracts, so it could be cynically argued that France was opposed to the war only because of the Oil Issue. However, if we follow this path we may just as well argue that since american companys are probably going to get the new contracts afetr the war, the US attacked only for the oil. While these factors may well have had some influence on those making decision, I seriously doubt they were large factors in any way.

Btw. GM, excellent example of the UN there! Reading it brought a hufge smile to my face. The principle is quite the same really... So I suppsoe I'd be on the side that wanted to get the umpires some sort of "bodyguard" to help inforce some decisions...

In regards to the Media thing. Yes, of course american media gives a completely differnt picture from european, and probably Arab media gives a third picture as well. However, bjust because they are different doesn't mean one of them is necessarily right, or wrong for that matter. The best you can do is watch them all, and try to find some sort of middle road. They're all propaganda fro crying out loud, you can't take them at face value.
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