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Topic: How was the real universe created? (Read 24064 times)
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Paxtez
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1) Space is, among other things, a relationship between things. The way you expand the universe is to make the distances between objects within it greater. That's all. If space redefines our galaxy cluster to be a little bit further from the next one over, it will seem to us that the universe is expanding. This is so whether or not there is infinite space or not.
Yes all expanding space means is that individual points in the uniververse are getting farther from eachother. Yes science is still out on this one, newer quantum mechanics suggests that it might be finite, but there are plenty of thoerys all around. If you look at space expandinging. Everypoint in the univerese is getting farther and father from eachother. There is a finite amout of matter in the universe (well not counting dark-matter and stuff, trying to keep it simple). If the universe is expanding, and there is a finite amout of matter, how can the universe be infinte?
I suppose one could say if you went to the point past where light was, and matter was and so on, you could say there is 'space' there, but whats the point? Empty, lightless, darkless nothingness?
I'm not saying that there is a boarder to space, just that the 'space' that 'anything' hasn't gotten to, should hardly be called 'space'.
you have it backward. Entropy isn't order, that's enthalpy. The universe tends toward higher multiplicity states (i.e. higher entropy). If you simply reverse the meaning of those concepts, though, your argument is correct, and it achieves the end you meant it to.
Err, yep I goofed.
Parallel realities and additional dimensions are totally different things. Just a heads-up.
I'm aware of this, I'm just lumping them together for based on the fact that they are both quite unprovable and its silly to argue them (again not getting into odd thoerys such as anti-matter universes, etc).
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2003, 06:05:55 am by Paxtez »
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....Paxtez....
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The_Ultimate_Evil
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Actually I think the only thing we can say for certain is that it is impossible for us to know the size of the Universe...for a long time yet.
IF the Universe is finite, we only know about one grain of sand in an entire ocean of sand. Sure we have our little theories, because we have to theorize about something based on the little available evidence (scientific method), but I would be shocked if our theories stand the test of time.
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The_Ultimate_Evil
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PS
Because the Universe is expanding (based on what we know) does NOT prove that the Universe is finite, not even the slightest bit.
Thats the whole definition of infinte you see, you keep writing numbers down for eternity. We see our little corner is expanding, whoop de do. That infinity number keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
"The universe is expanding" is an independant observation from this dicussion.
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AnonomouSpathi
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Spathi? What spathi? You're imagining, hunam.
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But infinity+1 = infinity.
Therefore infinity + 1 is not greater then infinty.
Therefore the universe is not expanding.
Of course, that's not really a problem if you're not using euclidean geometry anyway, and we have precisely no reason to believe the universe's geometry IS euclidean, so you're still right. If anything, I seem to remember Einstein theorizing that the geometry the universe uses is altered constantly by matter.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Imagine a balloon that is infinitely wide. Someone blows on the balloon so it's twice as wide. You can't measure how big it is (it's infinite!) but you can measure how the surface of the balloon changed -- everything on the balloon is now twice as far apart.
Also, according to general relativity, matter generates space. Therefore, if there's only finite matter there is only finite space.
This is possible, but we can still tell for sure that there is a heck of a lot of matter out there.
Oh, and note that if there IS a finite amount of matter, then space should wrap around on itself.
Yes science is still out on this one, newer quantum mechanics suggests that it might be finite, but there are plenty of thoerys all around.
I know of no quantum mechanical theories that deal with the size of the universe. That is principally the domain of General Relativity, which stubbornly resists being combined with quantum mechanics.
There is a finite amout of matter in the universe (well not counting dark-matter and stuff, trying to keep it simple).
Why do you suspect so? Also, dark matter is just like visible matter, except that it neither emits nor absorbs light. Perhaps you mean dark energy?
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The_Ultimate_Evil
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Imagine a balloon that is infinitely wide. Someone blows on the balloon so it's twice as wide. You can't measure how big it is (it's infinite!) but you can measure how the surface of the balloon changed -- everything on the balloon is now twice as far apart.
No you can't measure how the surface changed, the surface is also infinitely large, the surface NEVER ends, You cannot see the start of that surface nor can you see the end. It is impossible to judge how the shape of an infinite object changes.
And yes, infinity can mean a number that never ends.
Consider a number divded by infinity, we figure this out by taking the limit of ,say 10/x, as x tends to infinity. We keep making x bigger, and bigger, and bigger.
That answer never reaches 0! We have to keep making x bigger, and bigger, and bigger, as 10/x then gets closer, and closer and closer to 0.
This process never ends, infinity goes on forever and CANNOT be measured in any way (unless we're dealing with some expression that we can simplify). This has nothing to do with physics (which i only studied up to "phys 101") but has to do with mathematics that i work with every day.
The difference is that we KNOW that infinity never ends, it is completly unquantifiable, therefore 10 divided by infinity must equal 0.
The reason is to take this paradox (something which Newton addressed when he originally published differential calculus). Imagine you are walking towards your friend, you keep cutting the distance between you in half.
First you are 10 metres apart, then 5, then 2.5, etc... How can you ever touch your friend if the distances keep getting infinetly smaller? Because infinity goes on forever, thats why. At infinity, the distance equals 0.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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No you can't measure how the surface changed, the surface is also infinitely large, the surface NEVER ends, You cannot see the start of that surface nor can you see the end. It is impossible to judge how the shape of an infinite object changes.
Let's look at the case of a finite balloon. You blow it up to some diameter N, and draw some figure on the surface. Note that you're drawing a FINITE figure. Then you blow it up the same amount again. The difference is that the figure is bigger by a factor of 2^(1/3).
Now, take a balloon which has already been blown up to infinite size. Once again, draw a finite-sized figure on the balloon. Have the person who blew up the balloon in the first place blow up the balloon blow it up the same amount again.
The figure you drew will now be larger by a factor of 2^(1/3) -- the fact that the balloon already had infinite radius DOES NOT MATTER.
Our galaxies are the finite figures in the infinite space. As the infinite balloon of our universe expands, the galaxies are stretched more and more. Their internal gravity pulls them back together somewhat, but even so we can see galaxies that have been stretched by the expansion of the universe to the extent where they can no longer hold themselves together and will fall apart.
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2003, 12:08:03 am by Death_999 »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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I know. Please, calm down.
If it helps, think of the expansion of the universe not as a singular universal event, but an infinite number of identical local events happening everywhere.
Every region of the universe, regardless of size, is getting bigger. This includes all finite regions within space.
It does not include (as you keep resoundingly pointing out) that the amount of space itself is getting bigger, as that is infinite.
Nor are we using more of it.
However, it IS expanding. Since you are all comfortable with the idea of infinity * 2 = infinity, the idea that an infinite number can grow without becoming at all bigger should be very comfortable for you.
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2003, 12:16:57 am by Death_999 »
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