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Author Topic: Mars...the next Fontier?  (Read 19854 times)
NECRO-99
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2004, 04:41:13 am »

Posted by: FalconMWC
Posted on: 14.01.04 at 20:16:25
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As to your post Chrispy and the first part of your post Ivan, none of those things have been turned into operational weapons. (Unless the military is hiding something  ) If you look at the Microwave for example, it cannot be used as a weapon without some serious modifying.


Uhhh...Falcon?
I've got something for you to try. Take your microwave, and smash the hell out of the glass door, but leave the door itself intact. Chip away as much of the door as you possibly can, then stick your head in and turn the thing on for...oh...ten seconds. If you can manage to pull your head out (if you're still alive, that is, tell me what it felt like.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2004, 04:59:02 am »

I think the point is that people dont do that.
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NECRO-99
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2004, 05:32:36 am »

No, that isn't my point. I'll make my own points, thank you. Angry
I promise I won't tell unless he tries it or chides me in some way for asking such a thing of him. After one of these two things happens, I will then submit information on microwaves and their origin.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 05:34:16 am by NECRO-99 » Logged

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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2004, 05:49:59 am »

I ment falcon's point
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NECRO-99
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2004, 05:55:32 am »

Well, I'm going to wait for his response to my idea.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2004, 10:25:51 am »

do microwaves origins, have something to do with a chocolate bar, i believe? hint, hint...

~DEFIANT
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 10:27:50 am by DEFIANT » Logged
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Too early yet.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2004, 01:59:09 pm »

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Sending convicts:  Worked for Australia
At that time it seemed cheaper importing convicts than horses, machines or paid pioneers. I do not think that an astronaut will drive the cost into hights that would even allow us to consider sending criminals (regarding the high rocketprices in first place).

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Psychological studies of people in enclosed spaces & long periods?  Look at Atomic Submerine crews and Antarctic Scientists.
They still have real-time comunication with their friends. And still that is no longer than six months (Antarctic) / 1 year (Submarine crew / former russian Mir-crew, except for one poor man). And it makes a difference knowing that outside the shelter is earth, and not Void. Being able to speak with persons on earth in realtime is quite helpful too. But from mars, transmissions to earth will be cut off for something like 4 months and the transmission lag for the answer to your statement will be more than 8 hours! Even using pulsed laserbeam for transmission you will have a time-lag of more that 8 minutes! (4 lightminutes from earth to mars).

And the russian astronaut that has been up there for 16 months on the Mir needed more than 2 years intensive psychological care to recover.

I wouldn't go out there in the spaceships humankind is currently able to build.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 02:01:10 pm by Krulle » Logged
FalconMWC
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2004, 06:43:46 pm »

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Posted by: FalconMWC
Posted on: 14.01.04 at 20:16:25

Uhhh...Falcon?
I've got something for you to try. Take your microwave, and smash the hell out of the glass door, but leave the door itself intact. Chip away as much of the door as you possibly can, then stick your head in and turn the thing on for...oh...ten seconds. If you can manage to pull your head out (if you're still alive, that is, tell me what it felt like.


Problem, The microwave I have will not work if the glass is fractured or any pieces are removed. Wink  Anyway what you described sounded as serious modifying to me - But is does not matter.  I was talking about its use as a weapon. Lets say you wan't to fry your own head off with the mcirowave. Well, when you think about it a knife or a gun would be much more easier. You still have not turned the microwave into a "weapon" more deadly then a knife or a gun.  

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Death 999
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Re: Too early yet.
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2004, 07:17:20 pm »

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But from mars, transmissions to earth will be cut off for something like 4 months


I presume this would be due to the sun being in the way? We would definitely want a relay at one of the relevant Lagrange points to keep contact.

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and the transmission lag for the answer to your statement will be more than 8 hours!


Mars is on average 1.5 times as far away from the sun as Earth is. It takes 8 minutes for light to get from the Sun to the Earth. Neither of these orbits are highly elliptical, so we can assume the typical value for rough estimates. Assuming the worst case, that Mars and Earth are on opposite sides of the sun, and we have a relay satellite at one of Earth's Lagrange points, then we are looking at a distance of 25 and a half light-minutes (up from the 20 light minutes it would take if the path could go by the sun instead).
Since the signal also has to get back, there is a total delay of about 51 minutes. This would make a pretty slow IM conversation, that is for sure. But it's no 8 hours (that is the delay we'd expect if we were talking to someone sitting on Neptune)

Assuming the best case (Earth and Mars on same side of orbit) the delay would be 4 minutes, as you said.

What has me confused is that  you differentiated between pulsed laser and whatever other form of communication would take 8 hours. What is this slower medium?


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I wouldn't go out there in the spaceships humankind is currently able to build.


No surprises there. But if we work on it for ten years, maybe we can come up with something usable.

Oh, and I bet that exactly for the reasons you say, for such a long voyage we won't be sending two or three people -- we'll be sending enough to form a small community (8 or more). That alleviates the situation of the guy in Mir, who had no more than two companions for any stretch of time. If two people stop liking each other, they can realistically stop talking for a while without the entire place breaking down.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2004, 08:03:01 pm »

First off, I don't think breaking glass is a "serious" modification. It can be replaced. Secondly, the point I'm trying to get across... What does a microwave do?
It cooks anything it hits.
Microwaves are a small, boxed and untracking version of shortwave RADAR. Sailors with ships that had radar, primarily those in Korea and Vietnam (very few in WWII) would cook hot dogs by taking a wooden stick, stabbing the hot dog, and holding it in front of the dish. It only took three seconds; any longer than that and the hot dog would either catch fire or explode.
Take a basic home microwave. You don't need the glass in the door for it to work, all you need is the door's latch to secure; the contact is made and the thing'll fire up. Next, put a piece of metal in the microwave. Not tinfoil it bends waaay too easy and wouldn't be able to focus the beam. An old metal plate or a spoon would do. (CD's are amusing, I might add. Wink) When you turn the microwave on, the waves will hit the metal object and scatter. Hitting a spoon (an object with a definite concave shape) will slightly scatter the waves, but most will go to wherever the deepest point of the spoon is fixated upon.

My point? You can wear all the Kevlar you want; it won't matter when you're internal organs are all reaching 300 degrees. These things CAN be made into weapons. Microwaves came FROM military grade equipment, obviously a microwave as we know it wouldn't be too effective as a combat tool, but you take one of those shortwave RADAR dishes, amplify the signal, and aim it at soft, fleshy things, and you'll have a weapon plus some boiling human bodies lying about.

ADD: I did a little further research into the Korean/Vietnam era radar dishes. Most dishes were about eight feet wide, three feet tall, and had a spread ratio of 1 ft:2 ft, 1 foot out from the dish made the beam 2 feet wider/taller. It would only be effective at, oh, 100 yards, but I think that the ability to instantly boil a football field is quite a bit more dangerous than a gun or a knife.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 08:06:05 pm by NECRO-99 » Logged

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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2004, 08:33:01 pm »

Quote


ADD: I did a little further research into the Korean/Vietnam era radar dishes. Most dishes were about eight feet wide, three feet tall, and had a spread ratio of 1 ft:2 ft, 1 foot out from the dish made the beam 2 feet wider/taller. It would only be effective at, oh, 100 yards, but I think that the ability to instantly boil a football field is quite a bit more dangerous than a gun or a knife.


OK - By changing the size of the weapon you cannot compare it to the same thing. For instance, which would you rather have for a weapon, a radar dish or a daisy cutter? (I mean the extremely effective bomb) Now you might argue that in order  to use a Daisy cutter you have to have a airplane which is true. However have you lookd up how much power  the model you are talking about uses? Let me tell you what - no battery the size of  Texas is going to power that thing for long. (OK- a major exageration - but you get my point) Also Radar waves can be block very easily with even powerful  waves being blocked by less than a half inch of metal (with lead I think).

(Oh - My microwave detects when the glass is fractured - I don't know how - It is not fancy at all)
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Re: Mars...the next F*r*ontier? (Needed to fix it)
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2004, 08:53:14 pm »

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However have you lookd up how much power  the model you are talking about uses? Let me tell you what - no battery the size of  Texas is going to power that thing for long. (OK- a major exageration - but you get my point)

Actually, a diesel powered, 1960's technology battleship was able to power it with ease.

Quote
For instance, which would you rather have for a weapon, a radar dish or a daisy cutter?

Apples vs. Oranges. Both weapons, sure, but they have very different applications.

Quote
Also Radar waves can be block very easily with even powerful  waves being blocked by less than a half inch of metal (with lead I think).

A: The metal still gets hot, and would cook the people wearing them, except it'd be like cooking a can.
B: Lead? Riiight. Like the military is going to get the infantry to wear lead suits. Not only is lead fuggin' heavy, it's toxic.

Quote
(Oh - My microwave detects when the glass is fractured - I don't know how - It is not fancy at all)

Oh good God, don't tell me you actually tried[/b] that?!


Something I might note is that you wouldn't be using a "microwave food cooker", you would be using a "microwave RADAR dish".
Specify. If you keep using broad terms like "microwave", I'll keep doing things like this.
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Re: Mars...the next F*r*ontier? (Needed to fix it)
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2004, 09:11:59 pm »

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Actually, a diesel powered, 1960's technology battleship was able to power it with ease.


Yes - A diesel power battleship can pay LOTS of electric bills - It produces more than power to work the RADAR. I suppose you could get one and bring it with you considering the system only weighs about 8 tons (That is how much they really weigh)..

Quote

Apples vs. Oranges. Both weapons, sure, but they have very different applications.

I disagree - This was about microwaves and its applications with weapons - I was putting forth a example.



Quote

A: The metal still gets hot, and would cook the people wearing them, except it'd be like cooking a can.

No, a certain type of metal can take radar - and absorb it without turning hot.  

Quote

B: Lead? Riiight. Like the military is going to get the infantry to wear lead suits. Not only is lead fuggin' heavy, it's toxic.


We do that with Kevlar  - not to mention there would not need  to be that much lead if we were to use it.  Also Kevlar is fairly heavy.

Quote

Oh good God, don't tell me you actually tried[/b] that?!


Of course I did! - In fact is was quite amazing. Though I think it efffefcttted  mmmyyyy brainn II  amn havingg troubble sepelllling.

NOT

What really happened was a baseball connected to the glass and cracked it. We called the company and lo and behold the thing did not work because it sensed the glass was fractured. (That is what he told us - We never tried it)


(Are me and Necro-99 the only ones on this forum? Or maybe everyone but me has learned not to argue with him. O-Well I will learn some day...
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2004, 09:42:14 pm »

I was just reading throught this particular discussion and I would have to agree...with both of you.  A standard comsumer-styled microwave oven can be used as a weapon...but  only after minor modifications.  Such modifications would be removing the glass as well as disabling the circutry that controls the cracked-glass detector.  It would also require a wave guide to propperly direct the radiation output.  This, of course, creates a problem, since wave guides generally run about $1000 per linear foot and are exceptionally fragile.  This is, however, highly impracticle.

I believe this argument started with saying that there were several technological innovations that did not lead to the development of weapons or origionally come from weapon development.  This is only partially true as most technological advancements came from people poking into advanced technology.  Due to our races ingrained war-like tendencies, a good 90% of our technological advances are origionally plotted from military useage, but not necessarilly as weapons.

Also, just as an afterthought, the mention of needing a diesle-powered battleship to power a radar is, of course, talking about old-school technology.  As our technology advances, we find ways to make things more powerful and smaller.  It's called Micronization.  Now, I'm not saying that we currently possess the ability to make a directed microwave cannon small enough to be man-portable, but I do recongnize that, in all likelyhood, we will be able to sometime in the next 15-25 years.  That's not all that far away in the grand scheam of things.

Edit:  Spelling corrections...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 09:45:29 pm by Ikidomari » Logged

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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2004, 09:44:27 pm »

I have to say I find your debate quite amusing, its more fun to follow from the sideline.

If I was to venture into the debate, I'd skip the whole microwave thing and point out that Necro is correct insofar that most technological advances sem to come from warfare. A lot of things, from inflatable rafts to pocket knives were designed with military use in mind, and we all know why they wanted nuclear fission...

Interesting question on the microwave subject though (and I have done NO research into this, but since you have I figure two bright boys like you can answer this). If it as Necro states is that easy to construct a microwave weapon, why aren't they used? Sounds like they'd be a whole lot better than conventional firearms...

EDIT: just to be at least vaguely on topic, I'd like to point out another good reason for heading off to Mars. Excepting the fact that we are, as has been stated, quite capable of eradicating ourselves, there are other threats. D_999 mentioned asteroids, and how they can destroy cities. They might also be able to destroy worlds. Not in the explode sense, but you know, dustclouds, ice ages, "Armageddon" kind things. And if that happenms, we ahve all our eggs in one basket. We need to get a large portion of our species out there, if we wish to be ensured of the survival of said species.

Simple survival instinct. We need to get the hell out.

EDIT 2: And someone beat me to it. Fine, see if I ever talk in this topic again.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 09:49:08 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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