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SweetSassyMolassy
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*Frumple*
« on: December 09, 2008, 07:58:12 am »

I really hate to bring up a 5+ year old topic again, but I'm currently replaying the game and I found an interesting Orz quote that hopefully might shed some more light on what they're talking about, that is if the light hasn't been shed already.

"That is *funny*, you *see* Orz, but Orz is not *light reflections*. Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles*...Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.  I am Orz, I am one with many *fingers*.  My *fingers* reach through *heavy* space and you *see * *Orz bubbles*. But it is really *fingers*.

It's *funny* that the dialogue mentions bubbles, because a bubble has a 2 dimensional surface in a 3 dimensional space. Imagine sticking your finger through that bubble. Then a 2 dimensional being living on the bubble surface would only see the circular part of your finger protruding through the surface of the bubble, so to them your image is just the circle made by whichever part of your finger is sticking through. The way the Orz project themselves to others must be similar to this analogy.

So *fingers* = parts of the Orz that move through other dimensions
*Orz bubbles* = the projection of themselves in *camper* space
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Gekko
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 05:54:28 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvgwR9ERCBo

I see orz.
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Lukipela
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 06:58:04 pm »

"That is *funny*, you *see* Orz, but Orz is not *light reflections*. Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles*...Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.  I am Orz, I am one with many *fingers*.  My *fingers* reach through *heavy* space and you *see * *Orz bubbles*. But it is really *fingers*.

It has also been theorized that this could be a reference to atoms (picture an atomic model, bubbles stuck together). Or possibly minds (multiple minds compared to one single mind), but your idea is the one a lot of people agree with.
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 09:08:07 pm »


Whoa... What a video!
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Sandman
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 08:50:21 am »

Sorry to burst your *bubble*, sort of speak, but I think you guys are goin a bit too far.
- Quote from PR3: "The Orz is part of Them, the projection of Them into TrueSpace."
Now Let's go through that Orz dialog...
- "Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.  I am Orz..."

Meaning - Orz are not many different entities like *campers* i.e. humans. Orz is just ONE entity. All the Orz are, are just the tips of the one entity reaching through in heavy space. So those Orz connect somewhere in the other space, into the one collective body, which is Orz, hence " I am Orz" not "We are Orz".
Picture it like many tentacles, that reach through so u only see the tips of each tentacle, and they seem like many different beings, like a race, but they are actually only one creature on the other side.
This creature refers to humans as *bubbles* in the same way as humans refer to slylandro as *gas bags*
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Lukipela
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 09:13:12 am »

Sorry to burst your *bubble*, sort of speak, but I think you guys are goin a bit too far.
- Quote from PR3: "The Orz is part of Them, the projection of Them into TrueSpace."
Now Let's go through that Orz dialog...
- "Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.  I am Orz..."

Meaning - Orz are not many different entities like *campers* i.e. humans. Orz is just ONE entity. All the Orz are, are just the tips of the one entity reaching through in heavy space. So those Orz connect somewhere in the other space, into the one collective body, which is Orz, hence " I am Orz" not "We are Orz".
Picture it like many tentacles, that reach through so u only see the tips of each tentacle, and they seem like many different beings, like a race, but they are actually only one creature on the other side.
This creature refers to humans as *bubbles* in the same way as humans refer to slylandro as *gas bags*

Again, this is one alternative. Several of these can actually be true at once since they aren't that different.

1. *Orz fingers* can be the projection of one entity sticking it's "tentacles" through to our space. It can also simply mean that the Orz is one single entity in many bodies right here even though it came from somewhere else.

2. *Many bubbles* can mean that the Orz isn't made up of many minds, or that it doesn't have an atomic structure like us, or that they are travelling three dimensionally through our space. Or all three.

3. Not *light reflections* can be taken to support any alternative. If they aren't really here then maybe they don't reflect light but makes us think they do.. Or maybe if they aren't made of atoms they can't reflect light but somehow make it look like they do. These can even be true at the same time. If they are 3D travellers in a 2D world then I've no idea how that affects what they view as light.

While the creators have given us a few hints on what the Orz are there are very few definite facts here. thus it's interesting to discuss (even though this is for like the nth time. For more thoughts and replies you might want to read thorugh this. Or this. Or you could just help Sage with this.
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Sandman
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 09:24:54 am »

Ya, agree that it is only speculation, and purely my thoughts on this. Just wanna add some larifications.
The space measurement of our world is 3D - height, width and depth. So the Orz would be at least a 4D beings in a 3D world. (thats counting space without time)
My take on *light reflections* is  - humans see objects by the light that those objects reflect into your eyes. Thats how eyes work, and thats why you dont see anything when it is dark. Orz on the other hand are *fingers* (according to FR3 himself), so they dont *see*, but *feel* things, and thats why they dont use light reflections. Also this explains all the *touching* adjectives they use to describe objects.
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Lukipela
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 09:39:05 am »

The space measurement of our world is 3D - height, width and depth. So the Orz would be at least a 4D beings in a 3D world. (thats counting space without time)

Well it's a good thing you explained this, otherwise I might have mistaken my width for height! Wouldn't that have been embarassing.

The first post used a 2D/3D analogy so I continued on that. The point he meant to convey wasn't that our universe is 2D, but rather that to the Orz we'd be as 2D beings to 3D beings. That kind of differences are more easily explained and discussed using our frame of reference (1D/2D/3D) rather than some higher dimensions that none of us know about or can grasp easily. Still, to avoid misunderstandings I suppose I could have used XD or something.

Quote
My take on *light reflections* is  - humans see objects by the light that those objects reflect into your eyes. Thats how eyes work, and thats why you dont see anything when it is dark.

Coupled with the above I'm not sure if you think these things are unknowns that need to be explained or that we are pretty daft. It's good to make sure everyone is up to speed I suppose, but I think you're overexplaining things just a tad.

Quote
Orz on the other hand are *fingers* (according to FR3 himself), so they dont *see*, but *feel* things, and thats why they dont use light reflections. Also this explains all the *touching* adjectives they use to describe objects.

Good idea. Still the Orz say that they aren't light reflections, not that they don't see/use them. They can apparently tell that we are *light reflections* so they must be able to sense them somehow. And since we can see them they either reflect some light, or emit it, or just plain put pictures in our heads. The touching adjectives might also be explained by some sort of sense that we don't understand. Maybe an XD sense of some sort? Remember that the adjectives we hear are best-fits from the translator.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:44:14 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Sandman
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Re: *Frumple*
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 10:39:36 am »

Ya, sry for overexplaining, i dont mean to underestimate anyone, just like to make myself clear.
It is hard to discuss it without direct points to the dialogue between humans and Orz, and I dont have it here.
The translator works both ways. So to a being which doesn't use eyes as its main sensory device (which is my assumpsion), when a human asks something about the way you look, or anything remotely in that direction, the orz would get a translation as "the way you reflect light".
Sure, the Orz are pictured with eyes on their heads, so this is open to interpretation. I imagine it a bit like a conversation with a blind man, the way one side uses colour, shape and other light reflection associations, and the other uses form, feeling etc. touchy-feely associations.

P.S. Would be interesting to hear oppinions on some of the other unanswered questions in the game:
1) Are the Orz the ones who killed the Andosynth? Are they dead? Are the Orz the ones Arilou are talking about?
Interesting topic, cause, if you listen to words it appears Arilou are the good guys and Orz are the invaders BUT
if you look at actions... Arilou did experiments on humans and never showed themselves, they didnt help Earth after the shield was raised, they didnt let you see whats on their homeworld's surface, they *mistakenly* fixed the talking pet (arguably the most dangerous life form out there), and if you ask the Melnorme about them they say something vague in the line as "they might be good or bad".
Orz on the other hand always seem nice and friendly, as long as you dont bother them too much. They help you right away, and they DO help you - they send you ship designs, officers, and considerable firepower, and till the end never do anything wrong, just weird.
There seems, to me, that on words and on deeds there exists a little difference between the two races
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