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Author Topic: How the Kzer-za could have won the war  (Read 6307 times)
Wolframm
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 11:15:56 pm »

What you say is true, but without the use of the Sa-Matra, the Alliance would have remained in one piece for a much longer time, and then the Kohr-Ah would
arrive and attack the Kzer-Za from the rear. The Kzer-Za would have to fight both the Kohr-Ah and the Alliance. A nasty situation for the Kzer-Za indeed.
They had to get rid of the Alliance before their cousins arrive, and the Sa-Matra was the only way to do that.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 04:24:13 am »

I think the Kohr-Ah would have been more likely to engage the Alliance than the Kzer-Za. The MO is ``deal with the riff-raff, then get down to business (Doctrinal War)", not the other way. Although I do agree that the outcome of the war with the Alliance becomes a little uncertain if the Kohr-Ah don't behave like that.

Maybe there's a Doctrinal Conflict rule-book somewhere that stipulates the correct action under these circumstances?

Not embarassing, dangerous. The Kohr-Ah wouldn't wait around, they would engage in the doctrinal conflict immediately, and the Kzer-Za would be obligated to respond in kind while still attempting to hold off the Alliance simultaneously.
I disagree. As you say, either of the Ur-Quan want to pacify any free sentients who might get in the way before starting the ritual conflict. If the Kzer-Za have deemed the Alliance to be a threat to the conduct of the doctrinal war, the Kohr-Ah probably would too. So I think they'd wait for the Kzer-Za to finish the job. Or help out. The Kohr-Ah may be simple-minded, but that doesn't stop them from being fair.

Yeah, they were winning anyway. They just sped it up.
I'm not suggesting otherwise. Of course they're experienced conquerors, and of course they've dealt with organised opposition before. I'm saying that using the Sa-Matra would potentially give them an unfair advantage that the Kohr-Ah wouldn't have had in their position, even though it may not have turned out that way in the end. Which admits the possibility of cheating (to increase their strength for the war with the Kohr-Ah), although as I say, I suspect they had a reasonable excuse.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 04:44:59 am by Zeracles » Logged

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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 04:45:22 am »

Come to think of it, it's strange Kzer-Za didn't use the Sa-Matra more often - it would end conflicts so much faster, saving so much more sentients. They knew they'll face Kohr-Ah sooner  or later and beyond the encounter there would be no life, so the faster Kzer-Za progress, the less Kohr-Ah would cleanse. And besides, what's the use of keeping that awesome battle platform, but not utilizing it?
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 07:34:18 am »

Now here's an interesting question.....did the alliance cost the Ur-Quan the War?

If they had to immediately engage the Kor-Ah, then their fleets must have been weakened on the whole. Now they may have lasted 25 years fighting their brethren but what if having lost so many forces to the alliance beforehand made it impossible for them to ever win? No time to rebuild their fleets must have cost them territory at the beginning and they may never have been able to fully recover from it. If they had had say...5 years to rebuild before hand, I wonder ho things might have changed.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 02:17:02 pm »

Now here's an interesting question.....did the alliance cost the Ur-Quan the War?

The Shofixti did, by annihilating over a hundred Dreadnoughts with the Ultimate Glory Device.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 05:29:25 am »

The Shofixti did, by annihilating over a hundred Dreadnoughts with the Ultimate Glory Device.

That's pretty much the whole story right there. The Shofixti took out 1/3 of the Kzer-Za fleet in one move at Delta Gorno, which left them at a severe numbers disadvantage against the Kohr-Ah. If that hadn't happened, then the second Doctrinal Conflict probably would have been much like the first: an evenly matched stalemate likely to end in mutual destruction.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 07:38:38 am »

Another question, would the Yehat have been able to stand against the Ur-Quan alone for any length of time? The queen ordered the surrender but they had thousands of ships ready to engage the Ur-Quan fleet immediately after the Shoftix sent in that devastating blow. If a coordinated strike between the remaining groups right after that happened, could the Ur-Quan been beaten back? *assuming the Sa-Matra was not used*
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 08:25:32 am »

Well the queen obviously didn't think so, as she surrendered since she thought they would have no chance of winning
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 05:20:48 pm »

I would have said that she surrendered because of the risk of defeat instead of definitely being certain. Remember if they had been defeated she and her family would have lost the throne making that last stand less about fighting a losing battle and more about political cowardice.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2011, 03:52:16 am »

Now here's an interesting question.....did the alliance cost the Ur-Quan the War?

The Shofixti did, by annihilating over a hundred Dreadnoughts with the Ultimate Glory Device.

This really bothers me. If "hundreds" of dreadnoughts was a third of the Kzer-Za's entire fleet, that makes the fleets VERY small. You'd think the Doctrinal war would have ended sooner, and not to mention, it's crazy to imagine them dealing with an entire alliance like they did, especially considering claims of "thousands" of ships from single races. Not to mention, what the hell were they doing sending a third of their fleet into Shofixti space anyway?!
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 04:38:33 am »

Quote from: The Ultronomicon
The description of the losses suffered by Ur-Quan fleet varies from source to source: the Yehat assert that nearly thirty percent of the entire Ur-Quan war fleet had been destroyed, the Melnorme say that over a hundred Dreadnoughts had been caught in the miniature nova and the Shofixti allege that there were hundreds of Dreadnoughts destroyed. According to the Chmmr, this act also resulted in the Kohr-Ah fleet vastly outnumbering the Ur-Quan, which gave them a very significant advantage in the Doctrinal Conflict. Fwiffo, on the other hand, states that the blast only destroyed "dozens of Dreadnoughts", implying that a relatively small number of ships were lost.

Not _every_ source can be right. Wink

Quote from: onpon4
what the hell were they doing sending a third of their fleet into Shofixti space anyway?!

They probably expected to face the Yehat as well, which certainly alters the situation - the Yehat and Shofixti combined had stopped an Ur-Quan assault before.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 05:27:12 pm »

Basically exactly right. Nobody expected the Yehat to retreat from Delta Gorno before the battle even began, least of all the Yehat themselves.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 07:42:57 pm »

Also, about 'a third of the fleet'... Did you know that the US navy has multiple fleets? That very well could have been the Ur-Quan fourth fleet that got smashed up, just to pick an arbitrary number?

I'm not certain, but I think that's consistent with the source claiming one third. As for the other discrepancy, I believe it went dozens of dreadnoughts, hundreds of ships. The lower-ranking members of the hierarchy took losses as well.

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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 11:18:18 pm »

Quote
Also, about 'a third of the fleet'... Did you know that the US navy has multiple fleets? That very well could have been the Ur-Quan fourth fleet that got smashed up, just to pick an arbitrary number?

I'm not certain, but I think that's consistent with the source claiming one third. As for the other discrepancy, I believe it went dozens of dreadnoughts, hundreds of ships. The lower-ranking members of the hierarchy took losses as well.

Let me help clear this up.



So it was the entire fleet not just Ur-Quan Vessels. Also in another line during that conversation they mention that ALL of the vessels sent to Delta Gorno were destroyed. So as far a a battle fleet goes, that entire strike fleet was lost and on the whole, Hierarchy forces were reduced by near 30%. They all state how this was Hundreds of ships and that when the Ur-Quan arrive in Yeaht space, they had a fleet of 1000 ships ready to engage them.  I get the impression that the entire Hierarchy fleet musty have been along the lines of 3000 ships total left around this point.

Based on these numbers, I really think that a counter offensive launched at this exact moment between the remaining major powers (Crystal, Robot and Bats Smiley ) could have pushed the Ur-Quan out of alliance space. Now I am making assumptions but if Hundreds (which lets say 200 as a low ball number) were wiped out in Gorno and that was roughly 30% of the entire fleet, then they could only have had roughly 1000 ships themselves left total but since they still had enough to make war on multiple fronts, I think it is safe to assume the destroyed fleet was larger then this. Also the fact that the other races were unaware of the Sa-Matra even after they use it on the remaining alliance powers would indicate they pulled back all battle thralls during those invasions of the home systems meaning the bulk of those losses must have been dreadnoughts. I think it is safe to assume that they likely limited the number of ships any battle thrall was allowed to have in order to minimize risk of revolution among them.
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Re: How the Kzer-za could have won the war
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 08:02:11 am »

Based on these numbers, I really think that a counter offensive launched at this exact moment between the remaining major powers (Crystal, Robot and Bats Smiley ) could have pushed the Ur-Quan out of alliance space.

Only the Yehat were left at this point. The Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were the first to be defeated, followed by Earth. The Arilou bailed out and retreated, and the Syreen surrendered once Earth fell. Then the Shofixti turned Delta Gorno into a supernova after the Yehat withdrew. They likely faced the entire Hierarchy warfleet alone when they arrived in their space.

Extrapolating from that, 1000 ships was the remaining fleet after Delta Gorno, so the entire hierarchy warfleet was probably around 1500 ships beforehand. Operating under the assumption that a significant portion of the 500 ships at Delta Gorno were Dreadnoughts (in order to besiege and pacify the Shofixti homeworld once the battle was over like they did with Earth), and one could easily assume the the Kzer-Za did lose hundreds of ships; probably around 200 Dreadnoughts were destroyed, and that would be a significant number of ships if their entire warfleet was only 1500 to begin with, and composed of all main members of the Hierarchy.
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