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Author Topic: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!  (Read 27855 times)
CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2009, 12:41:16 am »

Here's a workaround: the Kohr-Ah get very heavy losses when powerful alliances form to oppose them; it then takes them a while to rebuild their fleet before advancing to the next sector. And keeping in mind that the Kzer-Za might be there, they make sure to build a massive fleet before going on.
Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them. This assumes two things, though: first that the other species somehow find out about them (possibly via an Utwig envoy, since they have the Ultron, or perhaps by other means), and second that the Utwig make a big enough dent in their fleet for them to take the time to rebuild.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2009, 08:35:57 pm »

I think the primary concern about this whole scenario is that even if the entire quadrant was alert and allied, they'd still lose. A collective defense would be required wherever the Kohr-Ah strike, so with the use of diminuation tactics a large alliance with many points to defend will lose when facing an imposing military that doesn't need to worry about defending anything.

If they just moved minor fleets against each race and their major fleet went on a death march, everyone would HAVE to defend their own bases and then the big fleet would just mop up while skirmishers kept the majority of alliance forces seperate.

There's also the minor fact that many of the races in this alliance would be nothing more than additional points that the alliance would be obligated to defend (IE ZFP). Then there are major leadership issues to consider. If the Chenjesu believe there is a tactical advantage in allowing Mycon space to be occupied for a period of time while a counter attack is made, I don't think the Mycon or any other race will be down with that. Only the Mmrn and Shofixti would be so willing, while most other races would just run away or protect their homeland with greater priority.

Mycon, Druuge, ZFP, Ilwrath, Spathi, VUX would all be useless in that they either wouldn't participate, would leave as soon as the going got tough, or wouldn't cooperate tactically unless in their self-interest.

Then there is the logistics and reinforcement issue that the Alliance just can't compete with. IDK- no matter how you consider the scenario the Alliance has no chance unless the Kzer-Za come before everyone is annihilated and the implementation of their respective doctrines gets put on hold for the doctrinal conflict.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2009, 10:14:36 pm »

And yet, a key point in many of the versions of this scenario was the fact that there wouldn't be time to form an alliance - the Kohr-Ah would pretty much wipe everyone out before they knew what was going on. If they received prior warning, from the Utwig or the Zoq-Fot-Pik most likely, or possibly even the Melnorme (though obviously they'd have to pay for that), then they might have time to form an alliance. And if they have time to form an alliance, they may be able to meet the Kohr-Ah before they get anywhere near their homeworlds, either in Mycon space or in the area occupied by the Ur-Quan in the actual game.

Of course, if they can't hold back the Kohr-Ah, or if they send skirmishers in to find and eliminate their homeworlds, that might not help. Still, with a functioning alliance I think they could stand a chance.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2009, 10:54:57 pm »

If they just moved minor fleets against each race and their major fleet went on a death march, everyone would HAVE to defend their own bases and then the big fleet would just mop up while skirmishers kept the majority of alliance forces seperate.

Oh, that gives me an idea for a variation of my theory! Rather than lurking behind, the rest of the Kzer-Za fleet might be concurrently dealing with races in other sectors of the galaxy. So perhaps it would actually be possible for the local Hierarchy to lose the Slave War - but in such case it would bring in a large Dreadnought fleet and crush the naïve celeberating Alliance.

And then the Kohr-Ah, in contrast, might move their entire fleet from sector to sector, cleansing each sector in a matter of months. Having the entire fleet concentrated, even the most powerful alliances would fail to put up any serious fight, so Marauder reconstruction wouldn't be much a problem.

Yes, I like this version better. Tongue

What I don't like about this entire concept is, that it renders the result of SC1, of the Slave War, completely insignificant - which really de-dramatizes the game story. But it does seem more realistic to me, and I'm a big fan of realism.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2009, 01:12:56 am »

Nah, the chunk of Dreadnaughts the Kzer-Za lost in the Slave War was critical to the SC2 story line. I mean, honestly, the Kzer-Za deal is FANTASTIC as soon as EVERY race in the galaxy is a slave race. As soon as the Path of Now and Forever was implemented over all life in the galaxy, it is a relatively stable and safe hierarchical organization. So long as the entire galaxy is under the doctrine, they don't even need Battle Thralls, so either they end up under the slave shields at the end of the day or they just meander on not breaking slave codes living about their happy lives.

The main issue about being a Battle Thrall is the requirement to provide crew, resources, and starships to enforce the Path, but if there is nothing to enforce the Path upon, then I don't see the Kzer-Za sapping so many resources out of their Thralls that they'd die of starvation or be unable to do anything- it's more like a governing body taxing it's constituents for protection than forced tributes and labor. Anyone who minds Kzer-Za domination and the peace that the Path offers is suffering from an inferiority complex... On the other hand, the Kzer-Za doesn't indicate how much stronger they are than everyone else and doesn't necessarily offer terms to be a thrall until after militaristic domination, so those that are being conquered may not realize what a sweet deal it is. In this sense, for the Kzer-Za, the purpose of domination is to impose Absolute Despair- but for races that are slightly more optimistic, the slave codes really aren't a bad deal.

So, in the sense that we dealt enough damage to the Kzer-Za that they would lose the Doctrinal Conflict, I think the events of SC1 are pretty dramatic. I mean, the damage done at Delta Gorno may've been the piece of hay that weighed on the Path such that the Eternal Doctrine would've been victorious had Zel not done what he did to give the Chmmr and Yehat an opportunity to surprise attack shortly after the Sa-Matra was destroyed.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2009, 03:37:28 am »

I wish people wouldn't call them Zelnick and Vindicator... Roll Eyes
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2009, 05:24:47 am »

Honestly, Zelnick is a badass name. If SC2 was to be made into a movie it would best be done as a shonen. Just imagine some little japanese girl voice actor shouting 'Zel' as his magical understanding (based purely on his i'kai nature or the precursorial brain parasite in his brain eating his brain- that way you can make it a tragedy too, well, sorta, he lives 'til old age and saves the universe 2-5 times, who knows right?) of the precursor computer allows him to guide it toward the Sa-Matra, but their fleet gets jacked and the Vindicator's engines go down and the ship is about to get  blasted- Zel is on his knees pissed at himself for not being able to get further and finish (punctuated in the hero's cycle by his experiences with Talana...), suddenly a Terminator jumps out of nowhere to save the Vindicator from getting blasted by a fireball (okay, technically speaking the fireball thingy goes through ships, but really- it would look badass to see that terminator come out of nowhere and Zel is like all pumped up again), and then furies swarming all over the place with Japanese metal pumping in the background as Zel's Ikai just magically makes the engines come back online and he leads the ship to blast the Sa-Matra and whatever unlucky dreadnaughts are nearby to bits (with Avatars awaiting just outside the blast radius, 'cause they calculated it and all, swooping in for a blitzkrieg). What better name for that than Zelnick? I mean, c'mon. Vindicator is just as badass. I mean, would Fwiffo really bend over so easily if you didn't say, "Cower before MY Vindicator *&^%es!" I mean, what better thing to name a ship so insanely big?
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2009, 06:02:36 pm »

Maybe so, but the game itself doesn't specify the names. They can be changed at will. So it's more generic to simply say The Captain and The Flagship (unless you're talking about your own playthrough).

And yes, if you're wondering, I do change the names.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2009, 07:50:05 pm »

And yes, if you're wondering, I do change the names.

So do I. I'm captain Jaychant of the flagship Vengeance.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #129 on: June 28, 2009, 02:36:50 am »

Captain Ilmarinen of Flagship Insolence reporting in Smiley

But seriously people, now I'm intrigued: how do you call your captain/flagship? And is it always the same name or every new adventure makes you jump in the boots of a new hero?
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #130 on: June 28, 2009, 04:44:46 am »

I don't choose the same name every time, no.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #131 on: June 28, 2009, 05:52:58 am »

Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them.

They don't do that when pursuing their death march... but then again
1) once they've won the doctrinal conflict, things are very different, and
2) half of the most dangerous people around are slave-shielded
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #132 on: June 28, 2009, 07:05:24 am »

I'm usually Jaychant of Vengeance, but sometimes I'll change it depending on how I intend to play. For example, one time I was captaining the flagship Murderer (alt: Doom, Death) when I was being evil and attacking everyone. One time when I was being super-nice, I was captaining the flagship Hero.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #133 on: June 29, 2009, 01:20:18 am »

Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them.

They don't do that when pursuing their death march... but then again
1) once they've won the doctrinal conflict, things are very different, and
2) half of the most dangerous people around are slave-shielded
3) Don't they end the Death March with the Utwig? None of the other races are equipped to exist, so if they need rest after killing the Utwig it won't matter, because everyone else is dead.

Well, except Earth, but they'd only need two or three ships to finish off Earth.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2009, 01:20:01 am »

Haven't been able to read every bit of every post but here are my thoughts on some of the things brought up. It has been argued the Alliance did not have a chance against the Kzer-za and would not have one against the Kohr-Ah. I don't think this is the case.

The Alliance of Free Stars had a real potential to defeat the Kzer-za (or the Kohr-ah). There is a legitimate reason to think things might have gone different for us. I didn't get the impression the Kzer-za had been forced to use the Sa-mattra much, if ever, before. Why us? Because we are probably the oldest races they have ever had to deal with. This doesn't have anything to do with the Arilou, who I suspect have something like time travel but not in the traditional sense, but rather with out location and the age of the universe. The Precursors seemed to lack for any real comtemporaries and years later the Sentient Mileu had only seven major races. That's how many the Alliance and the Hirearchy had fighting in the war each, but the Sentient Mileu wasn't limited to our quadrant: The Taalo homeworld is here but the Ur-quan began their marches from the other side of the galaxy. That's about 1/8 the sentient density of the current universe.* The Sentient Mileu presumably occured just as the Universe was starting to get "ripe". Having wiped out or enslaved their only true equals off the bat the early parts of the Ur-quan marches must have been almost a joke, they'd have been up against races less developed than the Ilwrath and Shofixti. However the rate of new races reaching sentience was also higher than it ever had been. The ancestors of the Alliance of Free Stars had almost all the time from the begining of the march to the 2nd doctrinal conflict to develop and prepare, we had a chance because every race before us acted as a speedbump to the Ur-Quan, buying us time. Also I think we'd be remiss to ignore the Rock-Paper-Scissors elements of balance. What is effective against one foe is not always effective against another, in real life and particularly in Star Control. The weapons of humans proved devastating against the much larger and more expensive Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts, presumably one reason the Chenjesu wanted us in particular.

Of course, when the Alliance races were starting to make tools, the Ur-Quan were already in the stars and they were improving too. The Hierarchy had an edge but not an overwhelming one. Technologically the Alliance's pooled resources were almost on par with the Hierarchy. In this quadrant by itself out production capacity was also close. The Hierarchy almost assuredly did have a back-up fleet watching over the worlds previously enslaved, but I think it was just that, a back-up fleet. If we'd been lucky enough to take out the initial assault there'd have been no immediate counter-attack from the rest of the Kzer-za. Instead the mostly logical Kzer-za would probably have pulled out their invasion force when they had taken great losses and returned to those worlds to rebuild and try again... resulting in a brief reprieve before an even larger war. Of course that nearly DID happen and the reason it did not was the Sa-Mattra. Sa-Mattra aside the 1st war was almost a draw.

And that is precisely why I think it is the Kohr-Ah and not the Alliance who would not have had a chance in *below* if the war had been along those sides. Point by point

The Kohr-Ah do not have the Sa-Mattra.
The Kohr-Ah do not have allied or slave races to provide greater diversity of forces.
The Kohr-Ah have previously lost against the Kzer-za in war.

The two major points I see for the Kohr-Ah having the edge are the lack of unity and speed of SC2's death march.

As for the lack of unity, it did take the Alliance a good deal of time to form against the Hirearchy and the stealthier actions of the Kohr-Ah would have made things worse.  This is major point for the Kohr-Ah, but the Alliance would in all probably still have formed. The inititial slow down caused by the subtlety of the Kohr-Ah would be negated when a few races dissappearance was noticed and the rest saw they were facing not merely conquest but extinction. Pretty much every race that had been in Hierarchy would have been with us, they weren't called by the Chenjesu before because they'd been enslaved already but I can't think of one of them that wouldn't join the Alliance against the Kohr-Ah. Spathi would be too afraid not too, VUX may be bigots but they want to live, even the Mycon would join us to ensure the Kohr-Ah couldn't deal Juffo-wup any setbacks.

The Death March is accurate for SC2, but not for a hypothetical SC1. The Kohr-Ah beat the Kzer-za, as has been stated, because of the damage the Alliance inflicted to the Hierarchy. Likewise the Alliance worlds are also battered and/or enslaved by the war. The Kzer-za beat us because they had the Sa-Mattra and being unwilling to use it against Kohr-Ah, they simply can't win in a weakened state. Neither can any of the races who just lost to them (except via Zelnick's ploy), but in this hypothetical battle the Kohr-Ah are facing an unweakened power.

There's also the point that the Kohr-Ah don't fight like Kzer-za, this is true, but it won't win them the war. When we fought the Hierarchy about half the races here became thralls and we lost in the end because of the Sa-mattra. Those slaves provided the Kzer-za with valuable infrastructure. When the Kohr-Ah achieve similair victories they will wipe out those worlds. They will do more damage then the Kzer-za did, but they will loose. I forsee the outcome of such a hypothetical war being assured Alliance victory but also assured is the extinction of approximately half the sentient life in this quadrant before they can be stoppped.

Then the Kzer-za show up and have people start choosing batons.

As far as the merits of Hierarchy Slavery... I do think a case can definettely be made, but perhaps not as easily as all that. I'm sure many people would make comparisons to communism both good and bad but the major aspect of Kzer-za philosophy that troubles me is democracy. Tyranny of the majority takes on a whole new meaning when a simple vote means your can either never travel through the stars or must fight for the Ur-quan. For the record does anyone know if that was that a human specific thing? I can see the Ur-quan using democracy and going by race because that is the surest way to ensure the new slave race's status matches the psychology of the race but I am not sure the method was universal.
 
Sure a unified peaceful universe looks better than a war torn one but what kind of peace are we really talking about? The Ur-quan are effecient and mostly fair but they can still be quite twisted... the whole destruction of 500+ year old structures and all. Life under the Hierarchy may not be all bad but it's far from the best possible world.
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